The word BELIEVE is first found in Genesis 15 in reference to Abraham’s response to the word of the Lord, but if we look back to the beginning of creation, when God spoke to Adam and Eve, they did not believe Him. Disobedience is the result of unbelief. Had they believed God, they would not have eaten the […]
Reasoned Cases For Christ 
I find it odd Bruce, that people of faith spend most of their time convincing others that the bible is truth and the word of God{though it is my belief that they subconsciously are always convincing themselves}
They use the faith of those before us, to make their case that the bible is the word of God. Therefore, if you believe the bible, you believe and hear from God.
But the Truth is somewhat opposite of that. The very people who had faith in, heard and obeyed the Word of God had no writings, no bible, no scrolls to confirm what God was telling them, this a fact. But more than that,
It was imputed onto them as righteousness from God Himself. I am in no way trying to say that what God has said and done in the past isn’t useful or important, what I am saying is that God is alive active today, tomorrow and infinitely beyond. The same Spirit that dwells IN Christ is here and now in His people, His Church. God never stopped speaking and His Word does not need a book to accomplish His will.
Those men of faith that we read about, had no book to judge their faith by. “Without faith, no man shall see God.”
It is my prayer that we shall all obtain the Faith that comes by way of God, and not a faith of our own built on sand.
To be honest Bruce, I’m looking for a response on this one. As you are a man of faith.
I don’t think the early church spent most of their time affirming the scriptures to one another. I understand that when dealing with the jewish population they did, but that’s all the jews knew where the scriptures.
I also understand that the Bereans searched the scriptures, but they were jews who were searching to see if Jesus was indeed The Christ. They were not searching the scripture to affirm the scriptures.
Blessings
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Mobile right now but will definitely respond later. Blessings.
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Hi Stephen, Sorry for the delayed response, we were babysitting some of our grandchildren most of the day.
In this particular case the author (Francis) was going over the various uses of the word “believe” in the scriptures and since so much rides of the actual meaning of that word when it comes to whether one is saved or not, I found her post both illuminating and noteworthy. I’m not quite sure what to make of what appears to be your criticism of making a case that the Bible is the Word of God. I obviously could quote numerous verses of scripture but I’m not going to do that because I’m pretty sure you are familiar with them. The fact that Jesus quoted scripture when tempted by Satan is pretty strong confirmation that the recorded written Word of God was authoritative. Up until Moses it is quite possible that there were no writings of the words that God had spoken but undoubtedly word of mouth must have been communicated because prior to the Law being given there were clear indications that things like clean and unclear animals had been identified not to mention sacrifices and alters. As you recall, it was God that commanded Moses to record the words that He had spoken to Moses in a scroll or book and recite them to Joshua and it was also God who commanded Moses to take the book of the Law that had been written down and put it by the side of the Ark. Plus there is the reading of the Law etc. In Abraham’s case his faith was imputed as righteousness but I don’t see that as any kind of inference that recording God’s spoken word was not required later on and deemed necessary or desired by God, when for example God chose to spell out the various particulars of the law. You state that God does not need a book to accomplish His will and that’s true but there are numerous indications that it was His will that His word be written down. I do understand the emphasis that God puts on faith and much of God’s word expounds upon that very fact both in the OT and the NT, in Hebrews as an example. I’m curious why you seem to be opposed to the necessity of having God’s word recorded, as God Himself clearly indicated it to be. To be candid with you, I’ve never run into any Christian who did not see the necessity of having God’s Word written down as He desired and the wisdom of that requirement. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you and you could clarify for me exactly what it is that you are saying. Grace and blessings as always my friend.
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Interesting Bruce. I appreciate that you are willing to engage in this discussion and not se me as an agitator. As far as I’m concerned, and I’m being serious, no where in the scriptures does it call itself the Word of God. It would be best if you did quote me such verses that I might study these verses. From what what I’ve read, Jesus is the Word of God and when could say that The Holy Ghost/The Spirit of God is the Word of God.
Also, from mu studies, the “Ark of the covenant” is a bad translation. It should be translated as the “coffin of the covenant” the word here for ARK is Arown unlike Tebah which is the word used for ARK when speaking about Noah and Moses.
If you remember correctly, I have a baptist friend who will no longer speak to me because I will not refer to the bible as the “The Word of God” the irony of it, is that the bible itself does not refer to itself as “The Word of God”.
None of the bible characters who heard from God ever had a book or scroll to confirm what The Word of God spoke to them, it was by faith in God that they responded an obeyed.
“Now faith is the substance things hoped for, the evidence of things UNSEEN” or so it is recorded as Paul believed. Unseen, as Saul knew the scriptures better then any man, so he boasted, it was an “UNSEEN” Jesus Christ who struck him down in the desert. There is nothing in the old testament for Paul to confirm this revelation that he received yet he moved in faith and followed Jesus Christ.
Why then should people not believe this power of God and resort to always placing the saving Grace of God into a book?
The engrafted word of God is not something you study and put to memory. It’s God downloading Himself into you. A plant can’t graft itself, someone has to do it.
You have to understand that my faith in God was forged long before I ever read the bible or met Jesus Christ. To be honest, all the apologetics and theological platitudes make me long for my ignorant days where I didn’t know about any of this stuff and trusted God as child trusts his father.
My trust in God has not diminished, my faith in man when it comes to the tings of God is best answered by Jesus in John 2:24
If you want to email me instead of it looking like I’m hijacking your blog, I would not be offended. My intent is to have an honest discourse Bruce and want you to know I do respect you and don’t question your faith one iota.
I look forward to your response.
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Hi Stephen, it’s been a long day so I’m hitting the sack soon but I will leave you with some verses to think about. What did Jesus, when responding to Satan, reply “It is written”? And in Luke 24:44 “Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” Notice the word “written”. And you state that no where in the Bible is scripture called the word of God. You might want to look at John 10:34-38 (NASB)
34 Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.” Correct me if I’m wrong but that categorically equates the word of God as scripture. And then we have Paul writing to Timothy in 2 Timothy 3:14-17 (NASB)
14 You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. The recorded word of God is scripture, the Law , the Prophets and the Psalms are all scripture. And I’m sure you recall that Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-18 NASB Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.That jot or tittle are the smallest strokes of the Hebrew written alphabet. I’m not questioning your faith but I do think that dismissing the holy scriptures as not being the word of God flies in the face of what Jesus and many others in the OT & NT say. I feed on God’s word daily and His Word sustains my faith. You say John 2:24 states your case when it comes to the things of God. Only problem being, you’re not Jesus. Peter, Paul, James, they’re all men, do you just write them all off because their men? I use the analogy of the layers in an onion to illustrate what God’s word does. His word helps me to see me and others from His perspective, and slowly more of me dies and more of Jesus lives in me. We really need that. OK, way past my bed time. Talk at ya tomorrow. Blessings.
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Good passages on belief, what belief does and why people don’t believe, etc.
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I’ve heard all those talking points Bruce. To me, they’re all moot. Some are talking about a specific scripture, some are used as arguments to counter according to what was written. In the story of Jesus’ temptation, are we really to believe that it was scripture that defeated satan? Or was it the fact that Jesus resisted satan and that, um, Jesus was God in the flesh? As you recall, satan was quoting scripture as well.
As for 2 Timothy 3:16, the true translation would be like this “All scripture THAT is inspired of God” they tend to leave the “That” out of most translations.
I’m in no way denying that some of the words recorded in the bible are words God spoke. There are some, it’s the minority of what is recorded and often those words were for other people. That’s not to say that they aren’t profitable for all.
Just for fun, next time you’re reading the bible, use the word “bible” every time you see the word “word”. I’ll give an example,
1 In the beginning was the Bible, and the Bible was with God, and the Bible was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a WITNESS to bear WITNESS of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received HIM, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his NAME:
13 Which were born, not of BLOOD, nor of the WILL of the FLESH, nor of the WILL of MAN, but of God.
14 And the Bible was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld HIS glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
There are very nefarious reasons some refer to the bible as the word of God, and as you well know Bruce, they use the testimonies recorded in the bible to put people into bondage. They make slaves unto themselves by getting people to submit to their cause, in the name of Jesus and without the bible, they could not do it. Every heresy and bad theology is rooted in some interpretation of the bible, but only if first, someone is convinced that the bible is the word of God.
And as for Peter, Paul, James etc, I don’t just write them off, there is no doubt they knew Jesus. But as we both know, they were fallible men. All things we receive must be filtered through The Spirit of God for we have access to that same Spirit. And as men, we to are fallible.
“His word helps me to see me and others from His perspective”, what about what you’ve experienced? It’s clear to me, that what you live has helped you to see His perspective.
God gives us physical life that we might have spiritual life. If it was all about a book, then the jews would of been fine and there would have been no need for Jesus.
And as for questioning ones salvation, the beautiful thing is that it doesn’t matter what others think. It’s Jesus’ decision. My father in law questions my salvation all the time cause I don’t see things from his evangelical, republican perspective. I have to continually remind him that his opinion is just that. The only opinion that matters is Jesus’ for it is Truth
I’ll drop it here Bruce. My goal is to magnify Jesus Christ not to discredit the bible. And I most definitely don’t want you to think I’m attacking you as I like and respect you Bruce. After my time with Jesus in the morning, I go straight to your blog to see if you’ve shared anything.
I continue to look forward to your writings.
May the Grace of Jesus be with you always dear friend
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OK Stephen, I’ll drop it too. I hear what you are saying, I just don’t agree with your reasoning, at all. Considering that you are a man and also fallible, you’d have to put your own reasoning under the same judgement that you render to everyone else’s that disagrees with you. If you’re fallible, which we all are, and there is no definitive written truth that serves as the yardstick from which to discern truth from error, we’re all in a world of hurt.Exercising discernment in doctrinal error must be a hoot. Have a blessed Sunday Stephen and I’m sure we be talking again. Grace and blessings my friend.
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